Guys,
Its nearly been 3 weeks since I've had my Cold Start Issue since replacing the Spill-Over Pipe/Hose. Let me tell you, that It feels GREAT!!! being able to jump into the Pajero and knowing / having the confidence grow again that it will start and not STALL without holding my breath.
At this stage I'm feeling confident that the spill over pipe was definitely a major source of air leak into the fuel system, as it was the last item to be tested / replaced which appears to have cured my cold start problem. But I would like to remind everyone that I have now replaced all fuel hoses, so there is every chance that I had multiple air leaks (They were probably the original hoses so that would make them near 13 yr old) so if simply replacing the spill over pipe for you doesn't solve your issue then don't despair until you have replace all fuel hoses and performed all the tests I'd performed.
Another point I'd like to make/stress is that that this Spill-Over pipe/hose does need to be securely clamped down. For this particular pipe/hose being 4mm the auto / motor and hardware stores near me did not have EFI / hose clamps to securely tighten a 4mm I/D hose which had a O/D of about 6-7mm, most if not all stores indicated that I wouldn't need a clamp for a hose this size.
But you have to trust me on this as clamp that FUCKER down. I was finally able to get a couple of proper hose clamps from a Hose and Clamp store here in Fyshwick, Canberra:
AUSHOSE
83- 85 Gladstone St
Fyshwick ACT 2609
ph: (02) 6280 4777
I still have a couple more tests to try, and am intending on doing still doing them, since I've done everything else it would be a shame to leave these items/things unchecked. As I get round to doing them I'll add a bit of a blog about them just in case it will help you out.
I'm going to give it another few weeks before I call it, and sigh a sign of releif that it wasn't my fuel pump seals.
Thats all for now folks
Mark
Sunday, July 27, 2008
Friday, July 11, 2008
Progress Report on Fixing Paddy - I think its fixed !
Well guys,
I think I've got some very good news. For the past three mornings Paddy the Pajero has not had the cold start issue Yahoooooooo!. Now I don't want to jinks myself yet and will wait a another week or so before I'll rest at ease. But yes !!!!! Paddy had started and ran with no stalls since replacing the Fuel Spill Over Pipe / Hose and hose clamps.
Well thats all I'm going to say for now, I'll give it a few more days / weeks before I believe it myself , but I think I've got it. It has not started more than two days in a row with no issue for several months, so fingers crossed :)
Cheers
Mark
I think I've got some very good news. For the past three mornings Paddy the Pajero has not had the cold start issue Yahoooooooo!. Now I don't want to jinks myself yet and will wait a another week or so before I'll rest at ease. But yes !!!!! Paddy had started and ran with no stalls since replacing the Fuel Spill Over Pipe / Hose and hose clamps.
Well thats all I'm going to say for now, I'll give it a few more days / weeks before I believe it myself , but I think I've got it. It has not started more than two days in a row with no issue for several months, so fingers crossed :)
Cheers
Mark
Tuesday, July 8, 2008
Progress Report on Fixing Paddy - Test 13
Well still no joy, however definitely feels like I have more power after cleaning out the fuel vapor check valve. So after giving it a couple of days I decided to go on to Test 13.
13. This test dealt with the fuel spillover pipe / hose which is connected to the Injector Spill Rail (at the 2nd cylinder injector) back into the fuel injector pump with a small 4mm I/D pipe / hose. This should have been looked at and replaced during Test #6 when checking / replace the fuel hoses, but hey better late than never !.
The old spillover hose as can be seen above was fairly rock hard especially the ends. I don't blame it as where it is positioned is millimeters from the hot engine. After changing the hose and cleaning up the little fuel leak on the pavers, I took it was a 10km drive to give it a good run and leave it sit overnight.
Fingers crossed - Lets see how this does.
Mark
13. This test dealt with the fuel spillover pipe / hose which is connected to the Injector Spill Rail (at the 2nd cylinder injector) back into the fuel injector pump with a small 4mm I/D pipe / hose. This should have been looked at and replaced during Test #6 when checking / replace the fuel hoses, but hey better late than never !.
The old spillover hose as can be seen above was fairly rock hard especially the ends. I don't blame it as where it is positioned is millimeters from the hot engine. After changing the hose and cleaning up the little fuel leak on the pavers, I took it was a 10km drive to give it a good run and leave it sit overnight.
Fingers crossed - Lets see how this does.
Mark
Sunday, July 6, 2008
Progress Report on Fixing Paddy - Test 12
Guys,
Today I went out to test Paddy's cold start issue and what a lovely frosty / misty / cold morning it was here in Canberra. Jumped in and cycled the glow plugs twice then kicked it the guts. Engine as usual started with no problems, I revved it to 1200 rpm. She started to run lumpy almost immediately, and just had time to race round and prime.
It then occurred to me when I was replacing the fuel hoses on the tank end I actually did not bleed the fuel system of air, simply primed it - Whoopsie another cold morning test wasted.
But soldiering on, I had read on the POCUK forum the following thread " Injector Pump " indicating another couple of possible causes regarding fuel tank end:
12. So this morning having just bled the air out of the fuel system, knowing that I want to keep testing down to 1 thing at a time but at the same time not to waste another Cold Start. So I decided to look for the Fuel Vapour Check Valve. After a little looking I found the little bugger located behind a protection guard plate / cover at the rear passenger wheel arch.
After removing the mud flap (2 x 10mm, 1 x 11mm screws) and the protective metal plate (3 x 10mm screws) I found a fairly dirty looking object:
After inspecting the exposed (Atmosphere) end of the breather pipes it had mud caked outside and inside, nearly blocking the pipe, but from what I could see not blocking it totally.
After undoing the 12mm bolt that held the filter on the chassis, I then proceeded to remove the the hose clamp and hose of the pipe on the top of the tank as you can see in the above photo.
When I took the atmosphere end pipe of the valve, I blew through it with some resistance (not totally block) but then dirt shot out and the resistance was less and it was easy to blow through the hose. I tapped the hose several times to clean it out and to be sure ran water through it and dried it off.
I then moved onto the hose between the tank and the valve, when I blew through this hose, it was free of any obstruction and fairly clean.
Now the check valve itself, the next photo show what it looks like after you clean the dirt and mud of it. I was able to find the Part Number on the side of the filter: MB925886 and after a search on the web I found the matching description - "Checkvalve, fuel vapor control".
As you can see in the above photo of the fuel vapor check valve, there is an "arrow" which indicates the flow / install direction. In this case the arrow points away from the tank hence the vapor flow from tank out to atmosphere and allow air back in if required.
No sure of what test to perform on this valve, I simply blew into the end from the tank and with a little air nothing, then slight increase in pressure the valve opens. Blowing from the over end (atmosphere) I could blow easily with no obstruction.
So all appears to be correct, I put it together again and well have to see how it goes tomorrow morning.
That it for today fella's......
Mark
Today I went out to test Paddy's cold start issue and what a lovely frosty / misty / cold morning it was here in Canberra. Jumped in and cycled the glow plugs twice then kicked it the guts. Engine as usual started with no problems, I revved it to 1200 rpm. She started to run lumpy almost immediately, and just had time to race round and prime.
It then occurred to me when I was replacing the fuel hoses on the tank end I actually did not bleed the fuel system of air, simply primed it - Whoopsie another cold morning test wasted.
But soldiering on, I had read on the POCUK forum the following thread " Injector Pump " indicating another couple of possible causes regarding fuel tank end:
- Fuel vapour check value /breather blockage - (Vacuum in a tank (because its not breathing) will draw fuel back out of the fuel system if there is ANY slight air leak on the pipework connections)
- The fuel pickup pipes in the tank have been known to have an issue where the top end of the inner pickup pipes corrode and can allow air to be sucked in. Or the pickup mesh / filter is blocked or dirty. POCUK Thread - "Pajero cuts out when cold"
12. So this morning having just bled the air out of the fuel system, knowing that I want to keep testing down to 1 thing at a time but at the same time not to waste another Cold Start. So I decided to look for the Fuel Vapour Check Valve. After a little looking I found the little bugger located behind a protection guard plate / cover at the rear passenger wheel arch.
After removing the mud flap (2 x 10mm, 1 x 11mm screws) and the protective metal plate (3 x 10mm screws) I found a fairly dirty looking object:
After inspecting the exposed (Atmosphere) end of the breather pipes it had mud caked outside and inside, nearly blocking the pipe, but from what I could see not blocking it totally.
After undoing the 12mm bolt that held the filter on the chassis, I then proceeded to remove the the hose clamp and hose of the pipe on the top of the tank as you can see in the above photo.
When I took the atmosphere end pipe of the valve, I blew through it with some resistance (not totally block) but then dirt shot out and the resistance was less and it was easy to blow through the hose. I tapped the hose several times to clean it out and to be sure ran water through it and dried it off.
I then moved onto the hose between the tank and the valve, when I blew through this hose, it was free of any obstruction and fairly clean.
Now the check valve itself, the next photo show what it looks like after you clean the dirt and mud of it. I was able to find the Part Number on the side of the filter: MB925886 and after a search on the web I found the matching description - "Checkvalve, fuel vapor control".
As you can see in the above photo of the fuel vapor check valve, there is an "arrow" which indicates the flow / install direction. In this case the arrow points away from the tank hence the vapor flow from tank out to atmosphere and allow air back in if required.
No sure of what test to perform on this valve, I simply blew into the end from the tank and with a little air nothing, then slight increase in pressure the valve opens. Blowing from the over end (atmosphere) I could blow easily with no obstruction.
So all appears to be correct, I put it together again and well have to see how it goes tomorrow morning.
That it for today fella's......
Mark
Saturday, July 5, 2008
Progress Report on Fixing Paddy - Tests 1 - 11
G'day Guys,
Having been reading a heck of a lot of forums and other documentation and learning alot of diesel diagnosing methods, symptoms and attempting to document what I'd learnt here in my blog in a more structured way I've been making my way slowly through the tests / diagnositics one at a time which has been very frustrating since you only have one attempt each morning to test the cold start since after the initial start issue the car starts and runs fine for the rest of the day, meaning you have to wait to the next morning. But I'm in no hurry as I want to eventually say for sure what the cause or possibly cause(s) have been.
To date I've done the following:
1. Bled the fuel system numerous times and especially at the start of the issue as I've documented in my blog. It helped for a little bit, but cold start issue came back after 3-4 weeks and bleeding did not help.
2. Drained and the water chamber for any water that may have been caught, ensured the water drain plug was securely tightened to prevent leaks. - No water and no joy.
3. Tighten all fuel hose connection clamps - No Joy
4. Replaced the Fuel Filter, making sure that the filter correctly sealed on the hand pump/primer (i.e. old seal not left behind) and that the water chamber / sensor had the seal correctly attached and tight - But still no Joy.
5. Attempted to look for air leak using clear Hoses on Filter 8mm input and output, 6mm return line. It was great to be able to see the fuel and what was happening during initial priming and engine running. During the initial priming and bleeding I could see there was a pocket of air about half the length of the hose from the filter to the injection pump. The only way to clear the lock was while the engine was running, to continue priming it, even when it got hard to prime, continuing priming and finally the the air pocket would just simply pass.
After this the car started for the next two mornings fine and did not stall. However when I took the car out for a test drive and got back, the air pocket would be back again. Putting it down to the size of the clear hose and not having the correct size host clamps to provide a good air-tight seal for the hose onto the pipes, but it was an improvement all over - Fingers crossed.
6. After some success from the previous test, I replaced the 8mm I/D Fuel hoses coming into and out of the FITLER and used new EFI hose clamps - but still no Joy.
7. Replaced the 6mm I/D Fuel host on the return line, including new host clamps. Initial cold morning start tests showed that Paddy would start and after little while start to run lumpy, but just like the very start increased the RPM for about 30-60 sec and the engine would run normal and no stall. It has been several months since I did not have to prime the fuel. Was I on a winner here ?
8. While priming / bleeding the air of the system after replacing the hoses, I could a high pitch squeal even now and then. I narrowed it down to the primer hand pump. When I wiggled the primer button, the squeal would appear to stop, but never start squeal. Thought that I finally had a sign of an obvious air leak hearing the squeal. What got me was that during the clear hose test, the fuel did not ran back into the tank. But I took the primer and filter of the firewall and took it to Diesel mechanic / specialist to have then test it under vacuum. When I dropped it off they said it would cost AUS$30 when I went to pick it up they told me the Primer / Filter was perfect andthey did not charge me for the test (Very nice of them). So I just saved myself $180-240 as a new Genuine Filter / Primer from Mitsubishi was $240 and after market one was $180.
9. After reading forums and other source regarding the HKT CP-05 glow plugs only lasting approx 12-18 months I decided to bite the bullet and replace the glow plugs with new CP-05's. I found the following PDF on the Delica forum - HOWTO Replace your Glow Plugs.
I tested each new glow plug and it heated red/orange hot with in 3-4 sec.
Took the old glow plugs out and tested them, most would take 7-8 secs to glow one even took near 11 sec and these were suppose to be quick glows.
Put the new glow plugs in and the next morning -4 degree C, in my eagerness I did a silly thing, I did not wait for full first cycle of the glow plugs, and so the engine started after the heating lamp went out (I should have known better and course swore at myself). The engine statrted but immediately ran lumpy, accelerator help a little but eventually stalled and shit loads of smoke. To add salt to the wound, a fucking kangaroo jumped out on me on the way to work and put a couple little dints on the right side. Fucking roos that the 2nd time Paddy has been hit by a roo.
10. Waiting for the next morning cold start I thought ok what next, so I decided to double check the glow plug power supply especially after the engine has started in case the glow plug module was shutting the glow plugs off prematurely during cold start. Next morning I had the multi-meter out and started Paddy (heating the plugs for 1 full cycle, and waiting a few secs after the 2nd heat lamp indicate went out) and pulled hand throttle on to bring RPM to 1500 to give me a little time before possible stall to get power readings.
After Paddy started and engine revved up to 1500 (poor thing, it did not sound good, especially not good at -4 degree C again), however I raced round put the multimeter leads on the glow plug busrail and negative terminal and I was reading 14volts, and I waited for sign of the busrail going to 0volts and the engine stalling. But the bloody engine did not stall, it did not even HICCUP. I scratched my head thinking WTF. This was the first cold start at below 0 degrees C that I have not had to prime her (Excluding the clear hose tests).
OK thought hard what had changed in the environment / startup procedure ? New Glow Plugs and properly heating the glow plugs. But there was no other difference except for I set the RPM immediately to 1500 rpm instead of 1000 RPM like normal.
11. This morning was only 0 degrees, and I heated the plugs normal couple of cycles, and started the car and let it rev up to 1000 rpm like I normally do. But before I could get reading the mulimeter the engine started to run lumpy. I took the voltage reading and it was at 14v so the busrail was getting voltage but the engine was running lumpy. not wanting it to stall, I primed it instead of using accelerator.
So Has it got anything to do with the RPM is 1000 rpm too low for a cold start ? I've got to wait for the next cold morning DAMN IT!!!!!
However I decided to delay the RPM test, after it nearly stalling this morning I replaced the fuel hoses and clamps at the fuel tank end. Lifting the carpet up to access the inspection panel in the boot of the Pajero I replaced the 8mm and 6mm I/D fuel hoses and clamps with new lengths of hose and efi hose clamps.
Image 1 - Carpet up and can see the inspection plate, remove 6 x 12mm bolts
Image 2 - Inspection plate close up.
Image 3 - Looking down through inspection hole onto tank. Can see the 8mm pipe left and the 6mm pipe to the right and what I assume to be the fuel tank guage wires and connector.
Image 4 - Looking through the inspection hole up towards the middle the car to see the other end of the hoses.
Image 5 - Job done, with the new fuel hoses and clamps fitted.
Lets see how Paddy starts tomorrow Morning. If it again runs lumpy and/or stalls I've still got the RPM test to do next and there are still a fair few more tests I've got to try which I've researched from the forums, but like I said, trying to elliminate one thing at a time and only getting one shot each day, I know it may take a while, but I'll get this little bugger sorted.
Stay tuned........
Cheers
Mark
Having been reading a heck of a lot of forums and other documentation and learning alot of diesel diagnosing methods, symptoms and attempting to document what I'd learnt here in my blog in a more structured way I've been making my way slowly through the tests / diagnositics one at a time which has been very frustrating since you only have one attempt each morning to test the cold start since after the initial start issue the car starts and runs fine for the rest of the day, meaning you have to wait to the next morning. But I'm in no hurry as I want to eventually say for sure what the cause or possibly cause(s) have been.
To date I've done the following:
1. Bled the fuel system numerous times and especially at the start of the issue as I've documented in my blog. It helped for a little bit, but cold start issue came back after 3-4 weeks and bleeding did not help.
2. Drained and the water chamber for any water that may have been caught, ensured the water drain plug was securely tightened to prevent leaks. - No water and no joy.
3. Tighten all fuel hose connection clamps - No Joy
4. Replaced the Fuel Filter, making sure that the filter correctly sealed on the hand pump/primer (i.e. old seal not left behind) and that the water chamber / sensor had the seal correctly attached and tight - But still no Joy.
5. Attempted to look for air leak using clear Hoses on Filter 8mm input and output, 6mm return line. It was great to be able to see the fuel and what was happening during initial priming and engine running. During the initial priming and bleeding I could see there was a pocket of air about half the length of the hose from the filter to the injection pump. The only way to clear the lock was while the engine was running, to continue priming it, even when it got hard to prime, continuing priming and finally the the air pocket would just simply pass.
After this the car started for the next two mornings fine and did not stall. However when I took the car out for a test drive and got back, the air pocket would be back again. Putting it down to the size of the clear hose and not having the correct size host clamps to provide a good air-tight seal for the hose onto the pipes, but it was an improvement all over - Fingers crossed.
6. After some success from the previous test, I replaced the 8mm I/D Fuel hoses coming into and out of the FITLER and used new EFI hose clamps - but still no Joy.
7. Replaced the 6mm I/D Fuel host on the return line, including new host clamps. Initial cold morning start tests showed that Paddy would start and after little while start to run lumpy, but just like the very start increased the RPM for about 30-60 sec and the engine would run normal and no stall. It has been several months since I did not have to prime the fuel. Was I on a winner here ?
8. While priming / bleeding the air of the system after replacing the hoses, I could a high pitch squeal even now and then. I narrowed it down to the primer hand pump. When I wiggled the primer button, the squeal would appear to stop, but never start squeal. Thought that I finally had a sign of an obvious air leak hearing the squeal. What got me was that during the clear hose test, the fuel did not ran back into the tank. But I took the primer and filter of the firewall and took it to Diesel mechanic / specialist to have then test it under vacuum. When I dropped it off they said it would cost AUS$30 when I went to pick it up they told me the Primer / Filter was perfect andthey did not charge me for the test (Very nice of them). So I just saved myself $180-240 as a new Genuine Filter / Primer from Mitsubishi was $240 and after market one was $180.
9. After reading forums and other source regarding the HKT CP-05 glow plugs only lasting approx 12-18 months I decided to bite the bullet and replace the glow plugs with new CP-05's. I found the following PDF on the Delica forum - HOWTO Replace your Glow Plugs.
I tested each new glow plug and it heated red/orange hot with in 3-4 sec.
Took the old glow plugs out and tested them, most would take 7-8 secs to glow one even took near 11 sec and these were suppose to be quick glows.
Put the new glow plugs in and the next morning -4 degree C, in my eagerness I did a silly thing, I did not wait for full first cycle of the glow plugs, and so the engine started after the heating lamp went out (I should have known better and course swore at myself). The engine statrted but immediately ran lumpy, accelerator help a little but eventually stalled and shit loads of smoke. To add salt to the wound, a fucking kangaroo jumped out on me on the way to work and put a couple little dints on the right side. Fucking roos that the 2nd time Paddy has been hit by a roo.
10. Waiting for the next morning cold start I thought ok what next, so I decided to double check the glow plug power supply especially after the engine has started in case the glow plug module was shutting the glow plugs off prematurely during cold start. Next morning I had the multi-meter out and started Paddy (heating the plugs for 1 full cycle, and waiting a few secs after the 2nd heat lamp indicate went out) and pulled hand throttle on to bring RPM to 1500 to give me a little time before possible stall to get power readings.
After Paddy started and engine revved up to 1500 (poor thing, it did not sound good, especially not good at -4 degree C again), however I raced round put the multimeter leads on the glow plug busrail and negative terminal and I was reading 14volts, and I waited for sign of the busrail going to 0volts and the engine stalling. But the bloody engine did not stall, it did not even HICCUP. I scratched my head thinking WTF. This was the first cold start at below 0 degrees C that I have not had to prime her (Excluding the clear hose tests).
OK thought hard what had changed in the environment / startup procedure ? New Glow Plugs and properly heating the glow plugs. But there was no other difference except for I set the RPM immediately to 1500 rpm instead of 1000 RPM like normal.
11. This morning was only 0 degrees, and I heated the plugs normal couple of cycles, and started the car and let it rev up to 1000 rpm like I normally do. But before I could get reading the mulimeter the engine started to run lumpy. I took the voltage reading and it was at 14v so the busrail was getting voltage but the engine was running lumpy. not wanting it to stall, I primed it instead of using accelerator.
So Has it got anything to do with the RPM is 1000 rpm too low for a cold start ? I've got to wait for the next cold morning DAMN IT!!!!!
However I decided to delay the RPM test, after it nearly stalling this morning I replaced the fuel hoses and clamps at the fuel tank end. Lifting the carpet up to access the inspection panel in the boot of the Pajero I replaced the 8mm and 6mm I/D fuel hoses and clamps with new lengths of hose and efi hose clamps.
Image 1 - Carpet up and can see the inspection plate, remove 6 x 12mm bolts
Image 2 - Inspection plate close up.
Image 3 - Looking down through inspection hole onto tank. Can see the 8mm pipe left and the 6mm pipe to the right and what I assume to be the fuel tank guage wires and connector.
Image 4 - Looking through the inspection hole up towards the middle the car to see the other end of the hoses.
Image 5 - Job done, with the new fuel hoses and clamps fitted.
Lets see how Paddy starts tomorrow Morning. If it again runs lumpy and/or stalls I've still got the RPM test to do next and there are still a fair few more tests I've got to try which I've researched from the forums, but like I said, trying to elliminate one thing at a time and only getting one shot each day, I know it may take a while, but I'll get this little bugger sorted.
Stay tuned........
Cheers
Mark
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